Comments on The Schooley Files: Rich Tatum Nails the "Reveal" Study

Hi dmarks! Welcome.A perceptive question! Let's ju...

2008-06-10T01:19:00.000-04:00

Hi dmarks! Welcome.

A perceptive question! Let's just say that, at present, this is my only public blog. That may all change around the 24th - my second blogiversary.

Hope you check it out then.

Keith

Hi. Just found your blog at Dawn's. You have many....

2008-06-08T12:16:00.000-04:00

Hi. Just found your blog at Dawn's. You have many. Is this the real/main one?

Thanks for the kind comment, Peter. It seems to me...

2008-06-07T00:54:00.000-04:00

Thanks for the kind comment, Peter. It seems to me that Rich's maxim mostly serves as a rebuttal to the health=growth analogy. It is, of course, possible that biological organisms may grow only up to a certain point, while churches are to grow indefinitely; but to make that case, one would have to get outside the church=organism analogy and actually argue the point biblically.

Keith,This is a dead shot. I could not agree more...

2008-06-06T16:42:00.000-04:00

Keith,

This is a dead shot. I could not agree more. Ken Hemphill, who was former President of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary penned a little book while he was Pastor at First Baptist Church, Norfolk, VA entitled "The Bonsai Theory of Church Growth."

The title is a give-a-way. Hemphill raised Bonsai trees for a hobby and used the characteristics of the Bonsai to illustrate churches growing to the size that fits their DNA, etc--a very similar idea to Tatum's maxim: "healthy organisms stop growing when they reach maturity and a size appropriate to their nature."

Both are excellent insights.

Grace, Keith. With that, I am...

Peter

Rich writes:"How I wish I could find a church that...

2008-06-06T10:14:00.000-04:00

Rich writes:

"How I wish I could find a church that is unintentially Pentecostal while being intentionally Biblical, where immersion in the Word is the focus of the pulpit, the community, and the believers, where worship is a spiritual discipline, not an event to pass the time and be entertained by, where Fellowship occurs in the context of real relationships, not merely scheduled events. I want a simple church where the proclamation of the transforming word and relational mentoring occurs on multiple dimensions, where programs and events take second chair to the growth of the community."

Sounds like you're preaching my sermon from last Sunday. If only a sermon could call such things into being.

Thanks for stopping by, Rich, and thanks for the o...

2008-06-06T08:58:00.000-04:00

Thanks for stopping by, Rich, and thanks for the original post.

To some degree, I see the problem as something of an "outcomes based" ecclesiology: we try whatever we think will create the outcome we believe to be desirable, rather than simply doing the things God tells us to do in His Word, and leaving the results up to Him. I wrote more about that issue here.

With regard to the type of church you yearn for, I think sometimes we need to look for one that has the elements we cannot control (e.g., biblical preaching) and then within that context work toward true community and fellowship on our own, rather than expecting the church to have it ready-made for us. If we get together with other believers within the church for some true fellowship and relationship-building, it doesn't matter whether the church (corporate entity) organized it; it only matters that the church (we who form the body) is carrying it out.

I also see a parallel between church and television news. The news has gotten increasingly "softer" (more puff pieces, less time devoted to actual reporting) as each station or network tries to get a larger market share; the net effect is that the overall quality of all TV news outlets decreases, which drives people who actually care about the news away from that medium entirely. It seems to me that in its quest for "relevance," the church has largely become irrelevant, because the types of answers that were supposed to be offered there can no longer be found.

Wow, thanks, Keith, for your expansive and complim...

2008-06-06T08:22:00.000-04:00

Wow, thanks, Keith, for your expansive and complimentary words! And your further reflection on the issues really resonates with me.

How I wish I could find a church that is unintentially Pentecostal while being intentionally Biblical, where immersion in the Word is the focus of the pulpit, the community, and the believers, where worship is a spiritual discipline, not an event to pass the time and be entertained by, where Fellowship occurs in the context of real relationships, not merely scheduled events. I want a simple church where the proclamation of the transforming word and relational mentoring occurs on multiple dimensions, where programs and events take second chair to the growth of the community.

I'm not bitter. But I'm exactly that "dissatisfied" believer the Reveal study has found.

Peace,

Rich
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