Comments on The Schooley Files: Ben Witherington on Pagan Christianity

Hi Keith,

Interesting thread here. I thoug...

2008-08-17T22:45:00.000-04:00

Hi Keith,

Interesting thread here. I thought your blog about Church from a few months ago made the biblical case for structured corporate worship quite nicely.

I would further argue that the sermons in early Acts, prior to chp 10, since they were given to the Jews rather than Gentiles, were preached to "the church."

It's worth remembering that Jesus preached to Jews and Luther preached to Catholics, and neither thought that they were speaking to unbelievers.

We also see structure and assigned duties in the NT church, as early as Acts 6. In Acts 15 we see that the NT church even granted power to decide how others ought to live their lives, far removed from those making the decisions. Even Jesus's ministry with the apostles has hints of structure and assigned duties, with Judas handling finances(Jn 13:21-30) and Peter, James, and John serving, with mixed results, as His "prayer partners." (Mt. 26: 36-46)

Specific lack of structure and accountability has led to innumerable problems, many of which we've personally witnesssed. Remember Pastor Bob's nephew who spent years in a "house church" that was basically a cult? And how about Mike Warnke's tax/authority dodge called "The Eastern Orthodox Church of Tennessee" which had absolutely no ties to the Patriarch of Constantinople. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Structure and authority in an organization are only a problem if those who hold power exercise it in a manner which furthers the structure and authority, rather than furthering the stated goals of the organization. That concept is widely known as Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy, named for Jerry Pournelle who is credited with first identifying and defining it as such.

In the Army there are two kinds of Drill Sergeants: Some use the structure and authority of their position to exert harmful influence over their charges because they have become addicted to power, and others (the good ones) use their power and authority to meld the individual and diverse personalities of the recruits into a cohesive unit with the skills needed to excell in battle.

The same dynamic works in both clergy and lay leaders, whether in megachurches or home-based fellowships. A true shepherd cares for the well-being of the sheep,(Ps. 23 and Mt. 18: 12-14) rather than "lording it over them as the gentiles do." (Lk. 22: 24-26)

We know the axiom that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," but rather than tilting at windmills to abolish authority, we ought to fight the good fight by standing guard against corruption. Otherwise we're likely to discover that, like life in a state of nature, Christianity without (biblical) structure is liable to be nasty, brutish, and short.

Similar to the Bereans of Acts 17: 10-12, we should understand that there's nothing wrong with stepping under the umbrella of authority as long as we've checked out the bona fides of the guy holding it.

Wow, I never thought that I'd be the guy writing in defense of structure and authority in the Church!

Grace and peace, Dave

The sequel to “Pagan Christianity?” is out now. It...

2008-07-30T09:31:00.000-04:00

The sequel to “Pagan Christianity?” is out now. It’s called “Reimagining Church”. It picks up where “Pagan Christianity” left off and continues the conversation. (“Pagan Christianity” was never meant to be a stand alone book; it’s part one of the conversation.) “Reimagining Church” is endorsed by Leonard Sweet, Shane Claiborne, Alan Hirsch, and many others. You can read a sample chapter at
http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org
It’s also available on Amazon.com. Frank is also blogging now at http://www.frankviola.wordpress.com

Hey Keith,

This is off-topic but I wanted t...

2008-07-15T17:01:00.000-04:00

Hey Keith,

This is off-topic but I wanted to pass along the following link: AzusaRemixed.com.

Tell me what you think of our new project.

Thanks for the link, William. I did not uncritical...

2008-07-10T08:20:00.000-04:00

Thanks for the link, William. I did not uncritically endorse Dr. Witherington's review, even before reading Dr. Zens's critique of it. Witherington seems to think that institutionalization is not a problem, and I disagree.

However, I am not terribly impressed by Dr. Zens's critique, either. It seems to take the form of scattershot quibbling, for one thing, rather than making one or more unified points. Moreover, many of the quibbles seriously miss their mark--and I choose for example a couple that are meant to address Witherington's review as a whole, which is the kind of criticism I would value:

Your entire review is built on a huge but false assumption that you never support. This assumption is the linchpin for your entire argument. Here is the assumption: That the Christian meeting in the first century was a gathering for worship, i.e., a” worship service.”

This assumption cannot be substantiated anywhere from the NT. There is no place in all of Scripture that teaches that Christians are to gather for “worship.” Other scholars agree. For example, in chapter 9 of his seminal work, “Paul’s Idea of Community,” Dr. Robert Banks discusses Romans 12:1-2 which says that our whole life is to be a worship until the Lord. He then makes this crucial point, “since all place and times have now become the venue of worship (Rom. 12:1-2), Paul cannot speak of Christian assembly in church distinctively for this purpose.”

This is a classic case of false dichotomy. We can believe that all of life is worship before God, and nonetheless also believe that Christians may gather together to worship God corporately. If that's not the reason for gathering together, what is the reason?

We have elevated and set in concrete that which there is absolutely no evidence in the NT – the pastor, the sermon and the pulpit – and in so doing lost the untold blessings of gatherings where Christ is exalted as all the parts bring forth uplifting contributions.

The pastor is quite clearly mentioned in Ephesians 4, and can be identified with the elder and overseer of the Pastorals; i.e., the model of "no church leadership" is unsupportable. Acts has numerous accounts of sermons; most of these, true, are to unbelievers, but not all. And while in my church tradition participation by the congregation is more encouraged than in other traditions, I think most pastors find people in the congregation more reluctant to participate than itching to do so and being restrained. Frankly, I think many who share the point of view of Zens, Barna, and Viola are tilting at straw windmills.

Witherington’s review is being critiqued quite eff...

2008-07-09T12:33:00.000-04:00

Witherington’s review is being critiqued quite effectively by another scholar. Parts 1, 2, and 3 can be read at this site, http://www.paganchristianity.org/zensresponds1.htm
William

Keith,

Thanks for the link to Witherington'...

2008-07-07T07:27:00.000-04:00

Keith,

Thanks for the link to Witherington's critique. Excellent. Presently, I'm reading The New Christians by Tony Jones. There's some overlap, I sense, between Jones and Pagan Christianity.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter